An in-depth study of fascism, intolerance and the push between ideals and complex political/social realities, The USA and the Holocaust, fueled by testimonies from Holocaust scholars and survivors, is equal parts informative and heartbreaking. For Novick, it’s also research that may shock many.
“I think this is going to be, for the general public, kind of surprising and a little hard to swallow,” he says. “That we could be both the liberators of liberating the world from tyranny and fascism and unwilling – as Daniel Greene says in the film – to do much to save the victims of fascism.”
Inspired by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum’s “Americans and the Holocaust” exhibit, it’s a film filled with individual heroes and tragic victims. Moreover, it is an analysis of the 20th century’s darkest chapter from a distinctly American perspective, exploring the nation’s bigoted roots in order to understand the decisions made (or, often, not made) to welcome more Jews to our shores, and to oppose Hitler’s grand plans of slaughter and conquest.
To Novick, who has worked with Burns since 1989, The USA and the Holocaust “is in the wheelhouse of the things we care about, which are: Who are we as a country? And for that matter: Are we a nation of immigrants? Do we welcome people? Why weren’t we more welcoming sometimes? What is our identity as a nation? This question of America’s response to the Holocaust falls right into that, and is extremely relevant to this day.”
Watching the documentary, it is impossible not to notice the echoes of MAGA fascism in the words of Charles Lindbergh and Father Coughlin, the anti-Semitic and anti-immigrant sentiments that justified exclusionary policies, and the refusal of many to confront the growing domestic authoritarian threat out of naivety, self-interest or /and prejudice.
“We’ve realized, with every movie we’ve made, how much every movie—as Mark Twain might say—rhymes in the present,” says Burns. “Because human nature does not change.”
In front of The USA and the HolocaustAt its premiere, we spoke at length with the acclaimed director about past American failures and triumphs and how they inform—and continue to resonate—in the present.
[This conversation has been edited for length]
The USA and the Holocaust it is about anti-Semitism, intolerance, immigration and fascism, which are extremely relevant issues. Was this timeliness the motivation behind it?
Not at all. In fact, we try to avoid this kind of modern motivation. We believe the past is a great teacher, but we knelt down and proposed this project in 2015, before Donald Trump even announced he was running for office. So we had no idea what was going to happen. We know, with every movie we’ve made, how much every movie—as Mark Twain might say—rhymes in the present. Because human nature does not change. All of these things are still in our system, and stronger at some times than others.
I promise you, it’s really hard to make a documentary film. I’ve never made a feature film and I’m sure it’s hard to make one, but it’s hard to discover the natural Veristitalian poetics – the narrative – in a documentary. In a feature film, you can just make things up and deal with that drama, even if it’s based on historical events. But here, there’s no place where you can afford to say, “Hey, it’s not so much like the present!” unless you decide, as we did, to bring it into the present, whatever that may be. For a while, this giveaway didn’t include January 6th because we were so far into editing before January 6th happened. We passed through Charlottesville.
Immigrants waiting to be transported, Ellis Island, October 30, 1912.
Library of Congress
You have to understand that if you tell stories, you have the opportunity to change people. If you make arguments, you don’t. I’m completely plagiarizing from novelist Richard Powers, who said that the best arguments in the world won’t change anyone’s mind. all that can do is a good story. We prefer to tell a story. As you can see, the first act of our episode is to set American precedents and precedents for the treatment of indigenous peoples, for racism, nationalism, anti-immigrant sentiment, and, of course, anti-Semitism. To see the ways in which American society has been primed to pass anti-immigration laws and to be susceptible to the pseudo-science of eugenics promoted by the left and the right. You begin to see that these are not alone of his kind impulses in Germany, but in reality Germany studies the Jim Crow exclusionary laws to base the first anti-Jewish laws they pass. There is no complicity that we have, but there is a human interconnectedness that we wanted to show. Then, as we step out of our narrative into the present, so much is happening, and that current has only gotten stronger. The flow of anti-Semitism has only increased in size. Proto-fascist – or what Biden calls “semi-fascist” – tendencies have only recently grown and been given voice, largely because permission has been given like never before in the history of the United States by someone in the highest office in the land. We’ve had racist presidents, but we’ve never had them express the kind of anti-government and anti-establishment views—along with that racism and anti-Semitism—so deep and so powerful, and with the ability to carry so far and wide, that it has dire consequences. . I’ve made movies about the Civil War, I’ve made movies that covered the Depression, and I’ve made movies about World War II—those are the big crises. This [present-day] One is as important a crisis as any we’ve ever had, if not the most consequential. The movie shows that if you appease tyrants, they see it as a sign of weakness. Do you think that’s true for Trump — and also for Putin? And [Hungary’s] Viktor Orban. It is absolutely true. I’m so glad you saw this. The key phrase is: Deborah Lipstadt, the greatest of all Holocaust scholars, says that the time to stop a Holocaust is before it begins. But what you have, as you painfully see: there’s public opinion, there’s political realities, there’s elections to be won, there’s entrenched bureaucracy, and all sorts of reasons why we don’t act, collectively and as individuals. And it’s nobody’s fault. You can’t say it’s all Roosevelt’s fault. It’s much more complicated and, to me, much more interesting. When do we wake up and say, I learned that when there is smoke coming from a house, there is a fire and when can we call the fire department? “You can’t call the fire department until it’s on fire. you just see smoke’ — that’s what happened. This is human nature. The Johnson-Reed Immigration Act with quotas, Roosevelt can’t do things, people have progressive ideas, but they withdraw them. Why; Because they believe that by introducing this bill, they will pass all these other bills that are waiting there to further restrict immigration. And just go, holy Toledo, don’t you see almost all that we’re talking about now — or even ten years ago? The film astutely examines the Holocaust through the context of the time… That’s why I answered your first question exactly the way I did. Because we are married to it. We’d rather be conservatively wrong than try to wink or show something. We say that Hitler would travel to Germany promising to restore Germany to greatness, right? We could just as easily say, “We promise to make Germany great again,” which is another translation. I did, for a point, and then we all looked at it and said, yeah, that’s a bit too much, let’s take it out [laughs]. A big question inside The USA and the Holocaust—raised, in part, by Deborah Lipstadt—is when we knew what was going on and when and how we should have acted. In retrospect, do you think there was a specific moment when we could have responded differently/faster/better? We have done more than any other sovereign nation – which is to say, let in more refugees than any other sovereign nation. It is important to say, “dominant nation,” because people fled to other places, such as Palestine. But we could have done more. In my eyes, and this is speaking personally, the movie doesn’t say it anywhere, and I’m telling you this in hindsight: we were failures. But I totally agree — you picked up on another great thing. Deborah said, maybe we could have gotten more people out of those ports which would have allowed more people in. More importantly, we could have shouted louder about what was happening. we publicized it a lot more so that, yes, we’re not interrupting the war effort, but we might have just made people more outraged about it. We didn’t do that either. This is a failing grade, which, as it says in the introduction, is not in our favor. You too…
